|
Post by Aurac on Apr 1, 2004 3:14:37 GMT
Are you serious about a single fighter outclaiming a ranger with same skill and maxxed wolf? Somehow I don't see that as being likely. Also, a ranger can block with a shield (granted this gets rid of the 2hand option), while a fighter can't berserk unless they're not tanking or unless they're Calvin. I'm curious to hear some numbers between a solo fighter and solo ranger, as well as a group of four fighters and four rangers. Perhaps two fighters eq'ed out and two rangers eq'd out for dual tanking. Let's start out with weapons and weapon skill heights for ranger. Also, how much would berserk help the bashing fighters (or tanking Calvin ? Probably similar to Dorian, I can't seem to just throw fighter before ranger without really seeing out some numbers. I'm not a power player, nor an expert. It's just that I can figure out mostly what a ranger can do from my experience with them. I've never had a fighter past 9 so I don't know much about berserk. For race, mix up the orcs and dorfs I guess. If this note is difficult to read, I apologize. My brain is swiss cheese tonight from hacking away at some code. --Aurac gives everyone .02 each
|
|
|
Post by CalviN on Apr 1, 2004 14:36:49 GMT
No, I'm not serious at all, and I have no evidence to back up my claim. (Insert -- HUGE -- eye roll here <-- )
Orc fighter, me, cblade in right, jdr in left, berserk defense, 100 rapier skill, 80-90's 2weapon skill
Orc Ranger, Chun, Crescent, 97 2haxe skill, defend whatever, strike, enormous wolf that was maxxed in everything except guard, (and was, according to a little birdie, was the highest maxxed wolf on the game before he lost her)
I would outclaim Chun on about 70-80% of the kills in any given party. Give him shadow sword with high 80's, low 90's, same deal. Now, if I can outclaim Chun with cblade/jdr that much, and any old orc fighter with 100 2haxe or 100 2hs, 100 ls, or 100 club, using crescent, rakar, osword as ls, krakadoom, or maybe ssm, can outclaim me 75% of the time when I'm using 2weap and cblade/jdr...... um. That means that if -- I -- was using one of said weapons, Chun would almost NEVER get a claim.
So, unless you know of a ranger with a better wolf, higher skills, that knows how to bash better than Chun with his 75+ million exp.... (Well, maybe Rhynst, but his wolf's not as high) um... yeah... like I said. Fighter's outclaim rangers.
*peer*
|
|
|
Post by angelou on Apr 1, 2004 15:16:40 GMT
I think my point has been missed.
Tank: Anybody Bash: Piggy Bash: Chun & Chewie
You get the claim. We all know that. My tenet is that you’re not actually doing more damage than Chun Chewie combined. You’re just doing more damage than them as individuals. So, Piggy did more damage than Chun and Piggy did more damage than Chewie. Getting the claim does not combine the damage dealt by Chun & Chewie collectively and that’s where I’m looking to hang my hat. Would you be doing more total damage in that instance?
Mine,
Dorian Gray
|
|
|
Post by CalviN on Apr 1, 2004 16:21:42 GMT
Actually, I think your point missed.... *grin* Your theory is based on the assumption that you know how the whole claim thing works. The player who does the most damage to the npc gets the claim. Right? Right.
Now, let's take a quick look at a different scenario. I'm bashing with cblade/jdr for a knife wielding elf necro with a revenant of restful-looking guard with the most damaging weapon he can use. Now I don't think I'm going to do more damage than the revenant, right? But I'm sure as hell going to do triple the damage the elf necro himself is doing, as long as he doesn't rot/lifesteal. So how come little elfie necro keeps getting the claim on everything? *ponder* Shouldn't everything be claimed by Revenant of Restful-looking Guard? *think* Um, no. It's claimed by his master, mistar elfie necro.
In the same regards, if Chun is killing something, with chewie, and Chun's wielding dual frying pans, Chewie's probably going to do more damage than Chun is, right? Does the claim read "charcoal wolf"?? *ponder* Probably not. It'd read Chun. Why? Cuz the wolfie's damage gets calculated in with the rangers. If you think about it, it kinda wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Now, if you know for a fact that this works differently, please, don't hold back... tell us how it works... And I'd be curious as to HOW you know exactly how it works. Are you a closet-case wizard? Friends with a wizard? Are you really an old school player who's been there, done that, wrote the help files, and just say you're a newbie on this board for kicks? *ponder* I'm curious to know who you are, and why you think you know so much, and I'm sure others are too. If you want to remain incognito for legal reasons on AA, fine. But otherwise, who the heck are you?
I mean, in every other post you state these claims as if they were written in stone, verified facts, and then in the same post mention something about not knowing for sure, or you're a newbie, or still new at this... kinda contradicting yourself a bit. Like I said, I'm just curious, and if you don't want anyone knowing, that's fine and dandy. But if would give your posts a little more credibility if we had a name to attach to the posts. (besides the loser villian from a lousy movie, of course. *duck* )
|
|
|
Post by angelou on Apr 1, 2004 17:07:41 GMT
Okay. When dealing with a Necro/Undead or Ranger/Wolf in regard to the claim, I have seen something that might help. In the event that the undead/wolf does the most damage as an individual you may see the following:
Lich killed Guard. …corpse of Guard claimed by <Necro> Charcoal Wolf killed Guard. …corpse of Guard claimed by <Ranger>
So, claim is redirected to the owner of the undead/wolf which, on this particular kill, did do the most individual damage. Once again, it may be trying to show that the undead/wolf has done this by the little “Lich/Charcoal Wolf” killed Guard. This isn’t 100% accurate because there is another way to trigger “<name> killed Guard [without actually claiming]. However, in most cases, this is pretty reliable. Especially when dealing with undeads and wolves.
So, when you’re bashing for a weak helf necro with an awesome lich, if that lich does more total damage than you, yes the claim will be redirected to the master of that undead. But, not because the damage of the master and servant has been dealt with cumulatively.
In regard to my knowledge base, I analysis things that matter to me and I ask questions to help keep things moving forward. I offer facts whenever possible and I offer my opinion, in the spirit of analysis and experimentation. As far as the validity of what I express, prove me wrong. I don’t post as some type of final authority. I post to open dialogs and to give my opinion. I also attempt to offer my analysis where I feel its helpful. I hope that’s sufficient. If it’s not, I don’t know what else I can say. I’m more enthusiastic about hard data and experimenting than playing same sort of stick measuring game.
The areas of analysis I embark on, often, can not easily be confirmed. They’re just theories and tests to pull in functions and more tests to delve deeper. In most cases, if I knew them as fact, yes I would most likely have gotten them from a wizard and I don’t do that. I enjoy working out the analysis strictly as an eager mortal.
Mine,
Dorian Gray
|
|
|
Post by tehlung on Apr 1, 2004 18:04:13 GMT
the reason you see wolf/lich killed npc is because they are most likely the one tanking it. if you are tanking it, you'll see you killed npc and think nothing of it. the same goes for parties. when a cleric is tanking, and the kill dies, no matter who got the kill i'm 99% sure the bashers see Cleric killed easynpc.
and i'm pretty sure, based on my experiences, that the claim bit is combined between pc and pet. i noticed i started claiming a lot less once new necro changes came in, despite throwing the same amount of rots and basically the same staff skill.
|
|
|
Post by angelou on Apr 1, 2004 18:14:55 GMT
Sounds good. ;D I just got a volunteer to bash for me and test that out. I'll figure out a way to condense the log so we can see how things turn out.
Mine,
Dorian Gray
|
|
|
Post by sinister on Apr 1, 2004 23:49:54 GMT
I thought about 2 necros+2 mages, but I'm not sure if there will be enuff rots to go around. Perhaps 20 years in the future when the mud can actually support a 4 necro party.
re: bashing Ranger + wolf vs bashing berserking fighter
HAHAHAHAH, what a farce. this discussion has been. No contest, fighter wins hands down. Ranger can't even beat the human/orc mage with tetsubo (of course, maybe fighter can't even beat)
As for your very apropo brilliance remark. What can I say, when you're right, you're right.
|
|
|
Post by Aurac on Apr 2, 2004 7:34:16 GMT
Calvin: I have not one single clue how much berserk helps you, but I'd imagine that a non-berserking fighter still beats a ranger hands down. I also wasn't envisioning two weapons, since a ranger probably isn't too great at it to compare.
I'm also counting the ranger as having three hits (himself, strike, wolf), and two hits for a ranger in your description (two weapons). So this means that damage is overall better with a fighter that's berserking. What if he's not? Just curious, is all.
--Aurac
|
|
|
Post by The Abyss on Apr 2, 2004 8:30:54 GMT
Sinister, You gotta stop that smoking Unless you waste half your life getting a decent staff skill on a human/orc mage then I would say the ranger will always beat the mage(assuming you meant no hastes?) easily enough. Even with hastes thrown in and the ranger using strike I would say it would be close but not a run-away success. Then again I dont really play much anymore so wot do I know
|
|
|
Post by The Abyss on Apr 2, 2004 8:32:23 GMT
Anyone try and experiments yet?
|
|
|
Post by CalviN on Apr 2, 2004 13:55:16 GMT
I know you don't play much. But some of us do. This "try and experiment" stuff is kinda funny. If you wanna find out 100% for certain who wins, you need a tank, preferably wielding nothing, or something that does little damage. Then get your two test alts to bash using dotimes 100 assist so there's no difference in combat rounds. Make sure the ranger strikes constantly, and wolf joins in as soon as possible. (Oh, and Aurac, you, wolf, strike is 3 hits per round? You can strike once per round now, and not every other round? Wow.) Then go out and kill about 20 9k kills, and keep track of who gets the claims.
Of course, I, and most of the power-players, already have a damn good idea of who outclaims who. All those hundreds of millions of experience gained partying with other alts, difference classes, races, weapon combos, etc etc. kinda make it hard not to notice those things. I know I have it set so anything with "claimed by" is highlighted, so I make sure I see who gets the claim every time.
And Aurac.... this bit about a non-berserking fighter? Um. I'm not quite certain what you mean... What exactly is that? You mean an adventurer? A fighter that doesn't use berserk is just an adventurer that skills a little faster. That's like a necro who never uses an undead. There is -no- reason for a fighter to use anything other than berserk. Ever. Period. Parry or riposte on multiple kills like optio/cold hand? ----Maybe---- But I kill them all the time using berserk. Not a big deal. Disarm the three little ones right away, start killing them, and try to disarm the big one along the way. The extra damage from berserk more than makes up for the parry/riposte bonus for heals. Dead in 30 rounds versus 50. Same heal usage.
And sinny... orc/human mage with tetty? You'd have to be perma-hasted to beat a fighter. and that, in my mind, doesn't count at all. Perma-haste the fighter, and there's no chance for the mageling. I mean, I can wield krakadoom, and stock up my room with hungas, and I'd do more damage than the rest of the party combined. *cough*750k/hr*cough* But that isn't quite fair.
|
|
|
Post by CalviN on Apr 2, 2004 13:56:56 GMT
Oh yeah, and btw.... I think it's funny that a thread about the best possible party configuration is the most read, most replied, longest pages ever thread on these boards. *grin* ;D
|
|
|
Post by Aurac on Apr 2, 2004 20:30:54 GMT
I wonder how long we can keep it going.
And yeah, I wasn't thinking about the strike once per round thingy. My brain's mush lately (relatives down, sleep's screwed up, on drugs, coding my area like crazy so I can get to 500, etc.).
Seeing as how you take more damage with berserk, I wouldn't have thought to tank with it. I know you do, but you're crazy and can afford the heals. =)
--Aurac
|
|
|
Post by tehlung on Apr 2, 2004 20:39:45 GMT
one thing that i've always found interesting and odd is...
when i want to make money, i try to limit myself to smokes/meds/free heals, and i end up making a paltry amount.
then another day i go medium pace, make a decent amount of exp, and make a ton of coins even though i spent more on heals.
i don't know why, but that seems to happen with all of my characters.
|
|