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Post by smoo404 on Mar 13, 2006 5:58:02 GMT
I was checkin over the boards and there seems to be some question about perhaps Hitman stacking...I Don't have any experience with the shadier aspects and abilities of clients to be able to tell, unless it's _really_ blatant and obvious. Any sk vets out there wanna chime in? Pondering,
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Post by Gromlakh on Mar 13, 2006 17:38:11 GMT
I was checkin over the boards and there seems to be some question about perhaps Hitman stacking...I Don't have any experience with the shadier aspects and abilities of clients to be able to tell, unless it's _really_ blatant and obvious. Any sk vets out there wanna chime in? Pondering, I actually started this post out to say that Hitman was obviously stacking like a MOFO. After a closer analysis of Defunct's log, I'm not so sure he was. To be honest, I wouldn't be shocked about it since that's par for the the course with today's SK, but it could just be a really good alias system combined with fast typing and good memory of where his commands are. For example, if he were stacking commands, you'd normally expect to see a series of several commands executed in succession exactly the same way every time with nothing in between. I'm not talking two commands; I can "drink murky blue potion [dp]" and "eat bottle [eb]" in less than a second without problem. I'm talking 4 or more with no misses ever. I don't really see that in the log. I see several times where Hitman manages to pull a murky from BOG, quaff, and eat the bottle quickly. Then, a few rounds later, he'll pull two murkies out, drink one, and do nothing with the empty bottle until the next round. That looks to me like he's just got the commands aliased close together with one letter/number and is typing them quickly. As an example of this, I was once accused of stacking because I could disarm quickly as a fighter. I would fight with a club, but manage to unwield it, wield my disarm weapon, disarm the opponent, unwield the disarm weapon, and rewield my primary in one round. I'm sure there are several fighters out there who can do this; just to be clear so everyone doesn't think I'm trying to brag. But I never stacked it. I just use a good alias system. a = wield [primary weapon] z = unwield x = wield [disarm weapon] c = disarm [opponent/prey/whatever] Go z,x,c,z,a really fast, and with practice you can get it in one round. I'd bet I could even alter that to add in throwing a hunga or something if I wanted to get fancy, which would make it look even MORE like a stack. But, I'm not perfect, and several times I'd screw it up or go too slowly. If you read a fight log of me doing that, you'd probably see one or two times during a fight when I messed up the aliases. That's a sign of quick typing and good aliases. Never missing and always hitting the exact same sequence of commands with no variation is a dead-giveaway of stacking. A wizard would probably have to look at his in-game aliases to see if it's possible with what he's got programed. My gut tells me, though, that he's probably not. It's downright amazing what a fast typer can accomplish. After all, how many times did Lunger get accused of cheating before the wizzes realized that he's just that damn good?
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Post by venom on Mar 14, 2006 0:12:16 GMT
First off, yes he was/is/always has been stacking, lets look at the log...
Title: 'chiba vs hitman' // Defunct <13> Fri Mar 10 10:10:20 2006
Hitman leaps out of nowhere! He thrusts his hunga-munga deep into Chiba! Hitman stops wielding his hunga-munga.
Right here he should have thrown instead of unwield/wield bow/shoot enemy/get from pack/throw hungamunga at enemy
Hitman wields his bowstave in both hands. The dome of glowing webbing surrounding Chiba flickers as an arrow slips through it. Hitman shoots Chiba with an arrow! A straight arrow is broken! Hitman takes something from the belt of the giant (worn). Hitman stops wielding his bowstave. Hitman wields his hunga-munga in his right hand. The dome of glowing webbing surrounding Chiba flares brightly as it deflects a hunga-munga.
A smoking white liquid sprays from Chiba's hand and dissolves Hitman's head to a withered lump!
Hitman wields his bowstave in both hands. Hitman hooks a foot under Chiba's ankle. Chiba loses her footing and goes down! Hitman pummeled Chiba's head repeatedly. --More--(21/377)
Chiba missed Hitman. A grizzled fence says: Welcome, Bort, what can old Bort do for ya? A grizzled fence says: Welcome, Hitman, what can old Bort do for ya? Hitman draws a straight arrow from a fine fur quiver (worn). Hitman nocks a straight arrow. The dome of glowing webbing surrounding Chiba flickers as an arrow slips through it. Hitman shoots Chiba with an arrow! Hitman takes something from the belt of the giant (worn). Chiba quaffs a murky blue potion [Extra Healing]. Hitman stops wielding his bowstave. Hitman wields his hunga-munga in his right hand. The dome of glowing webbing surrounding Chiba flickers as a hunga-munga slips through it.
Hitman hit Chiba with a hunga-munga! Hitman wields his bowstave in both hands. Hitman takes something from the belt of the giant (worn). Hitman quaffs a murky blue potion [Extra Healing]. Hitman stuffs an empty bottle down his throat and burps contentedly. Hitman draws a straight arrow from a fine fur quiver (worn). Hitman nocks a straight arrow. Hitman clubbed Chiba's body hard with a bowstave. Chiba bludgeoned Hitman's head heavily.
All in one round? Wow, he is fast.. So he did hunga wield bow get potion drink potion eat bottle nock arrow all in one round? I mean I suppose that is possible, but CONSISTENTLY DOING THAT, no freaking way.
A grizzled fence says: Welcome, Bort, what can old Bort do for ya? The dome of glowing webbing surrounding Chiba flares brightly as it deflects an arrow. Hitman shoots an arrow at Chiba, but it is deflected! Hitman takes something from the belt of the giant (worn). Hitman stops wielding his bowstave. Hitman wields his hunga-munga in his right hand. The dome of glowing webbing surrounding Chiba flares brightly as it deflects a hunga-munga. Hitman wields his bowstave in both hands.
Again, wow!
Chiba quaffs a murky blue potion [Extra Healing]. Hitman pummeled Chiba's head repeatedly. Hitman's parry only manages to slow Chiba's attack. Chiba missed Hitman. Chiba nibbles slowly on a piece of wastelbread. Hitman coughs as acid burns into him! Hitman draws a straight arrow from a fine fur quiver (worn). Hitman nocks a straight arrow. The dome of glowing webbing surrounding Chiba flares brightly as it deflects --More--(63/377)
an arrow. Hitman shoots an arrow at Chiba, but it is deflected! Hitman takes something from the belt of the giant (worn). Hitman stops wielding his bowstave. Hitman wields his hunga-munga in his right hand. The dome of glowing webbing surrounding Chiba flickers as a hunga-munga slips through it. Hitman hit Chiba with a hunga-munga! Hitman wields his bowstave in both hands.
WOW! I'm pretty sure right there is enough to give you proof. The rest of the log is the same thing over and over. But so what, tons of people have/do stack.
Samah stacked Traci stacked I even stacked sometimes, but usually only when facing machine alts The rules of sk are not to avoid cheating, but to avoid getting caught.
Why do you think Hitman doesn't post his own logs?
Cory
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Post by Cory on Mar 14, 2006 0:13:48 GMT
Yeah, wrong account, sorry, heh.
On top of the fact that he stacks, he does at least do a good job of stacking!
The pack usage shows some skill in setting up stacks.
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Post by Pillar on Mar 14, 2006 14:21:09 GMT
The rules of sk are not to avoid cheating, but to avoid getting caught. I thought the point was to kill the other person before they killed you? At what point should cheating enter into the equation? And before you say that it can't be done without cheating, think again.
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Post by Tempest on Mar 14, 2006 21:37:39 GMT
Asking the SK to never cheat is like asking the mafia to never break laws. They do it because that's the quickest and easiest way to get what they want.
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Post by smoo404 on Mar 15, 2006 4:07:20 GMT
There's no pre-set conditions, it's up to the individual. On one side you have people who are perhaps too conscientious, and won't even wank you while you are out gathering cash, buying pots etc; they will instead wait until you have consented to a time and place. Till such a time as they feel like the 'gauntlet of honor' has been thrown down, if you will. A bit stuffy perhaps, but so be it. Other people will go to any lengths possible to kill you. Perhaps arranging for a power outage in your area at the opportune moment... Stacking probably comes in somewhere in between these kinds of extremes. Some stackers are masking there lack of knowledge and experience in pk, while I think the majority of client-abusers are already very good and just use the client to get that little extra something. A lot like steroids in sports. Personally, since most stackers are already very competent killers, I think it would be cool if they would just let there fingers do the talking. Allowing the automation into the fight takes away from the human aspect somewhat, which is kinda disappointing *shrug*
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Post by Gromlakh on Mar 15, 2006 4:35:03 GMT
After reading your post, I'm a bit confused. I was always of the understanding that "stacking" commands was illegal/against the rules/etc. So, I went to "help rules" to try and get a quote of the text. Imagine my surprise to find that, despite everyone SAYING stacks are banned, "help rules" does not, in fact, say a single word about stacks being illegal. Section V bans "automated scripts" (e.g. triggers), but not command stacks (stacks are not "automated" because they require manual execution).
If the wizards want to ban them, I'd suggest they actually write that into the rules. Otherwise, I don't see the problem.
Aren't 'ya glad there's a lawyer around? ;D
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Post by Tempest on Mar 15, 2006 6:26:07 GMT
I think a stack of commands is considered to be included in "automatic scripts". Stacking means typing something like "command;command;command", which is just a quick, hand-typed, command bar script. The semi-colon ( used with zMUD to seperate commands is not part of the MUD itself, and is just a simple version of the macro/script part of zMUD. Further, you can put multiple commands into macros and aliases and hit only one button or type one or more commands to fire off the script. The idea is that not all players have clients that can do this (such as telnet) and you are gaining an unfair advantage over them by doing so. The archery stack problem was illegal, not only because of the above, but also because it--at one time--abused a "feature" where you could go in and out of a room before the MUD had a chance to let the monster notice you and hit you. Thus again you are gaining an unfair advantage over players who cannot do this with their client.
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Post by Gromlakh on Mar 15, 2006 14:22:09 GMT
I'm not arguing that stacks should or should not be illegal. I'm just saying that stacks are not automatic; they require the player to type out the commands and manually execute the stack. The MUD client does not do this automatically for the player in response to a given output from AA. Plus, the example given in "help rules" is a trigger for linkdeath protection, and how triggers are bad because they play the MUD for you and require no input on your part.
My suggestion, o mighty wizards, is that if stacks are expected to be illegal, that section of "help rules" should be rewritten to make clear that both triggers and stacks/macros are illegal. Clear Rules = GOOD.
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Post by Notanalt on Mar 15, 2006 17:11:08 GMT
Suggest as you will, but clearly a wizard that finds you stacking is going to bust you for it, whether you think it's clear in the rules or not.
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Post by Pillar on Mar 15, 2006 17:41:50 GMT
this is an argument from what? five years ago regarding speedwalking? it's been beaten to death. here's the gist of it:
don't stack. don't use macros. it's not clear in the rules. you can be busted for it.
that's it.
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Post by Pillar on Mar 15, 2006 17:43:05 GMT
I'm just saying that stacks are not automatic; they require the player to type out the commands and manually execute the stack. players can type out the commands before the fight using macros. all they have to do during battle is hit F1, F2, F3, etc.
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Post by Gromlakh on Mar 15, 2006 18:21:37 GMT
You guys are blowing what I said out of proportion. I'm not arguing for or against stacks. I'm not whining about anything in regards to them. I'm not advocating speedwalking (which annoys me, especially when half-assed tanks like Akapokos use it and get me in trouble). And I'm also not saying that a wizard would not bust you for using stacks (or, at least COULD, whether any of them would bother is another story).
All I'm saying is that, based upon what the actual rules say right now, it's not clear. Lack of clear rules = Bad. My suggestion is just to take five minutes, rewrite that section, clearly ban stacks so that there's no question about it, and be done with it. As a matter of fact, I'll even do the work for you:
"V. Scripts, Triggers, Stacks, and Macros
The use of client-side scripts to play the mud is illegal. This includes automatic scripts, such as a "trigger" that automatically sends commands to the mud upon receiving a given text string from the mud. This also includes macros and stack scripts, by which a player may manually type a short text string (or single key) and have his or her mud client send a series of commands to the mud which will be executed instantaneously.
Ancient Anguish contains a powerful server-side alias system, nickname system, and the ability to execute a sequence of commands at once through the use of "do" aliases. The use of these systems and commands is allowed and encouraged. All client-side scripting, no matter what name the player may choose to assign it, is strictly prohibited and could result in punishment or banishment of the offending player."
See there? That's not so hard, and it would eliminate both the need for this discussion and speedwalk whiners.
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Post by Tempest on Mar 15, 2006 21:12:45 GMT
What can I say? Malire likes vague. =)
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