|
Post by Notanalt on Mar 4, 2009 21:29:01 GMT
Homicide numbers have not changed, gun homicide numbers more specifically have been unchanged (gone up and down) and the entire program has cost the country BILLIONS of dollars.
Bottom line, the registry program was a giant money sink that ended up changing absolutely nothing for safety of Canadians.
|
|
|
Post by tehlung on Mar 4, 2009 23:07:56 GMT
I love President Obama!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
He's the best president ever! Isn't he grand? He's so awesome at fixing all the problems over the last 200+ years caused by George Bush!!!!!!1 He gives great speeches! I hope he's president for life!
He and his followers stand for timeless American values like helping your lazy neighbor, apologizing for America, spending our kids' money, and encouraging discussion of his ideas exclusively.
|
|
|
Post by tehlung on Mar 4, 2009 23:09:27 GMT
I love President Obama!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
He's the best president ever! Isn't he grand? He's so awesome at fixing all the problems over the last 200+ years caused by George Bush!!!!!!1 He gives great speeches! I hope he's president for life!
He and his followers stand for timeless American values like helping your lazy neighbor, apologizing for America, spending our kids' money, and encouraging discussion of his ideas exclusively.
|
|
|
Post by Notanalt on Mar 4, 2009 23:38:53 GMT
Exactly.
Actually there are some very interesting stats comparing the effects of th gun registry in Canada and comparing it to the United States.
Just an absolute botch job. The worst part is most sane people knew that it was going to happen and the government didn't listen.
I look forward to watching the exact same thing happen in the United States.
|
|
|
Post by Blackened on Mar 5, 2009 5:42:11 GMT
if trudging through the marsh and swamp with the temperature in the teens, along with Bella, the ole' trusty bow and arrow, makes you feel like an elite hunter, more power to you. I'll stay dry in the pirogue or deer stand and shoot a shotgun or 30 odd. Fair enough. I prefer single shot close range shotguns. I think it more a challenge than sitting in a stand 500m away with a scope and 10 bullets. Down here in some of the rural areas they hunt wild boar with knives. i don't need to live in south africa to see what happens. all i have to do is drive to the 9th ward or any other primarily uh, ethnic area in new orleans to see. What I meant was, if (hand)guns are widely available, gun crime starts spreading out of the 'ethnic' regions. It becomes difficult to control when police refuse to risk their lives and you end up skirting from compound to compound to avoid getting shot. Note: The above is speculation on why SA became the compounding hopping place it is. It's based on my observations when I lived in Chicago. Any non corrupt police tend to ignore bad areas whenever possible to avoid getting shot. that raises another question. what is the common factor in high crime U.S. areas and South Africa, and is missing in NZ? No idea. NZ actually has the second highest (reported) crime rate in the world. Mid-table for violent crime and lower for murders. My best guess is lower poverty.
|
|
|
Post by Gromlakh on Mar 5, 2009 5:58:28 GMT
Okay, here's a bit of a response to the gun registry stuff.
I don't hunt. I take the Ron White approach. It's not that I have anything particularly against hunting...it's just really early in the morning, it's really cold, and...I don't wanna go.
I know all you gun nuts are going to whine and moan about how a gun registry would force you all to give up your guns, since I'm sure the NRA (probably the biggest group of collective morons ever assembled) told you that, so this probably isn't going to actually have any effect. Regardless, I'll look at the text of the bill and tell you what it ACTUALLY does, from a law enforcement perspective, then you can feel free to simply ignore things like "facts" and "statutory text" and go back to believing in "baseless fearmongering."
First, the gun registry does not require that you give up your guns. The only thing it requires is that you be licensed to own a firearm and that SOME of your guns (since it doesn't cover all guns) be registered to you. So, if you currently own 55 Glock 9mm pistols and this passes, you can still own 55 Glocks, you'll just have to register them and get a license.
In fact, the only new-ish restriction that bill puts on you for getting a firearm license is that you have to take a firearm safety course to show that you actually know how to store, clean, care for, and safely operate a firearm without killing yourself or others around you. I say "new-ish" because most states already require that to be done anyway, especially if you want a permit to carry concealed weapons. I can't see how it's in any way a bad thing for people who want to own guns to actually know how to use them properly.
To put this in perspective, as a prosecutor I am deemed "law enforcement," I carry a badge, and my badge gives me the right to carry a concealed firearm without first obtaining a permit. Regardless, my boss (a Republican prosecutor, very conservative, and the longest serving prosecutor in the country) won't let us do that as a matter of office policy unless we show him proof of completion of a firearms safety class. BTW, they're offered FREE by most police departments.
Second, not all guns are required to be registered under this bill. If you look at the definitions section, the term "qualifying firearm" (the only ones required to be registered) is limited to only handguns and semi-automatic firearms with a detachable ammo magazine. Hunting rifles don't qualify because the substantial majority of them do not have a magazine. Shotguns also don't have to be registered, although I think they should be. The main target of the registry are kinds of guns normally trafficked illegally by gangs, and shotguns should be included in that. We've recently had a rash of stolen shotguns up here, and the gangs have a tendency to cut them down. Those things are DANGEROUS and cause mass casualties. If you've never seen the spread of a sawed-off shotgun at even medium range, it's pretty scary. Hits done with a sawed-off always result in massive collateral damage to innocent bystanders.
Third, only the most incredibly naive buffoons actually think this bill will make criminals follow the law and register their handguns. That's not the point, EVERYONE knows they won't. Here's a list of excellent ways this bill would aid law enforcement and, by proxy, the average law-abiding citizen. Since Daddy Tehlung is always a martyr, I'll use him as my hypothetical bad guy.
1. A new case comes across my desk for computer hacking and cyberstalking. Apparently, Daddy Tehlung and Auron conspired to hack the AA servers, steal the mudlib, and then threaten to track all the AA admin down in real life and beat them up. We issue felony arrest warrants for both suspects. My cops prepare to arrest both y'all. They check the local gun registry and see that Auron has no firearms registered, so they suspect he is unlikely to be a threat. The police arrest him at his home without incident.
They then check the registry for Daddy Tehlung. Apparently, Daddy Tehlung owns 20 handguns and enough assault rifles to keep a small militia in business. Ruh-roh, that doesn't sound like a home we want to bust into. For the safety of our officers, we opt to not serve the arrest warrant at his home. Instead, we set up surveillance on him and arrest him at a local coffee shop. No officers are harmed, because they had information that allowed them to plan a safe arrest. Go, Registry!
2. Since moving to Sin City, Daddy Tehlung has joined up with the notorious New Orleans gang The Gotti Boyz. We are quite certain that Daddy Tehlung has been involved in a number of crimes, but the gang's code of silence has made it difficult to prosecute him as no witnesses will come forward. Possession crimes, though, are easy to prove. One of our local officers spots Daddy Tehlung on Bourbon Street and knows Daddy Tehlung has a misdemeanor warrant out for his arrest, so he gets arrested.
Oops, Daddy Tehlung has an unregistered firearm on him, and Daddy Tehlung isn't licensed to carry a gun. If there's no gun registry law, the most we could do is tag him with the misdemeanor offense of carrying a concealed weapon. Big fucking deal, he's out in a day and laughing about it. If we have the registry law in effect, those registry violations are felonies, and we don't need citizen witnesses (who are vulnerable to intimidation) to testify to anything. We just took one of The Gotti Boyz off the streets; have fun in Angola, fuckhead.
Oh, and you're now a convicted felon, so if you get caught carrying a gun again after you get out you're committing both the registry offenses AND illegal possession of a firearm by a felon. The penalties just get worse, and it helps keep the gang bangers off the streets and in prison where they belong. Go, Registry!
3. Same scenario, notorious Gotti Boy Daddy Tehlung is arrested in the French Quarter and is packing. Right now, today, the likelihood of tracing where that gun came from is extremely low. With the registry, I can just run the serial number of the gun and find out who owns it within seconds. Turns out that gun is owned by GayJay, who just recently moved to New Orleans with his 82 kids. The gun was stolen from GayJay's home in a home invasion burglary two months ago.
No gun registry, and the cops will almost certainly never find out about that. Most gun owners don't record the serial numbers of their guns; if they do, there's no central location to report the stolen gun to. So, nobody's gonna know that the gun Daddy Tehlung is packing was stolen from GayJay. Because of the gun registry, we know that within a few minutes of Daddy Tehlung's arrest. We can notify GayJay and return his gun to him.
Oh, and we also charge Daddy Tehlung with grand theft by possession of stolen property. That's fourteen years in Angola. Oh, and he's not licensed to carry, so that's probably another five or so years. We probably don't even need GayJay to testify, so the Gotti Boyz won't bother trying to intimidate him. I'll just have the cop who arrested Daddy Tehlung testify. I get the opportunity to send a notorious gangbanger and thief to jail for nearly 20 years, all because of the registry. Without the registry, he walks with a simple misdemeanor. Go, Registry!
4. Some of you may not know this, but GayJay didn't just have one firearm stolen from his New Orleans home. GayJay had his own personal arsenal and tons of guns were taken. Three months later, a member of MS-13 is arrested in New York City with a Glock on him. One registry check later, and it turns out to be one of the guns stolen from GayJay. Not only do we get the grand theft/registry stuff, but we get a special bonus. Because the gun was registered and stolen in Louisiana, then made its way to NYC, we can prove it has crossed state lines.
This brings me to my favorite two words in the English language: "Federal Jurisdiction." As long as there's something crossing state lines involved, the feds can get into the case. That could mean we charge the gang member in state court, then get consecutive time in a federal pen. It could mean the feds just take the case and ship him off to Timbuktu. It also could mean that the feds put the pressure on him and force him to take whatever exceedingly horrible plea deal I offer him, because if he doesn't play ball with me they'll charge him and send him to federal maximum security lockdown for years because of his status in MS-13. For those of you who don't know, federal maximum security prisons are on lockdown in solitary confinement 23 hours a day, 7 days a week. Damn, that sucks.
No registry, and those charges don't exist. With the registry, and that gang member goes away for a good long while.
In conclusion...GO, REGISTRY!
|
|
|
Post by Notanalt on Mar 5, 2009 6:15:54 GMT
These are all great theories.
Problem is, in Canada at least, all of these wonderful theories have translated into a HUGE amount of lost money paid by the taxpayers and basically a zero change in violent crimes, murders, blah blah blah.
Have fun USA!
|
|
|
Post by Notanalt on Mar 5, 2009 6:22:08 GMT
And just to be a bit more specific.
1. Running the check on the guy who has handguns and assault rifles is going to come up empty and get the poor cop killed when they find out Daddy Tehlung didn't register his arsenal.
2. Wouldn't it be easier and WAY cheaper to just change the concealed weapon law to not be just a misdemeanor?
3. Tracing the gun will be awfully tough if it also was not registered. Also why wouldn't these criminals simply find a way to remove the serial number?
4. Again, why not just find a way to remove the serial numbers?
|
|
|
Post by tehlung on Mar 5, 2009 12:42:59 GMT
I love President Obama!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
He's the best president ever! Isn't he grand? He's so awesome at fixing all the problems over the last 200+ years caused by George Bush!!!!!!1 He gives great speeches! I hope he's president for life!
He and his followers stand for timeless American values like helping your lazy neighbor, apologizing for America, spending our kids' money, and encouraging discussion of his ideas exclusively.
|
|
|
Post by tehlung on Mar 5, 2009 12:49:02 GMT
I love President Obama!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
He's the best president ever! Isn't he grand? He's so awesome at fixing all the problems over the last 200+ years caused by George Bush!!!!!!1 He gives great speeches! I hope he's president for life!
He and his followers stand for timeless American values like helping your lazy neighbor, apologizing for America, spending our kids' money, and encouraging discussion of his ideas exclusively.
|
|
|
Post by Gromlakh on Mar 5, 2009 14:20:06 GMT
Yes, not surprisingly, law enforcement and the judicial process costs money. You pay me, you pay the judge, and yes, you pay for public defenders. What's the alternative? I don't wanna pay so let's just let the criminals run free?
I'm not saying it isn't going to cost money, but I'm all for anything that puts more information into the hands of law enforcement. When we can easily find out more information about the criminals we're prosecuting and the crimes they're committing, the system runs much more smoothly.
None of the stuff I proposed about how it will help law enforcement is a hypothetical. Central databases are 100% crucial to law enforcement in helping to solve and prosecute crimes. You may not think we need to know, but guess what? WE DO.
Another example of how databases help, this one not directly related to guns. When I get a new case on my desk, the first thing I do is run the guy's priors. While most people talk about their "record", there is not actually one central place where every person's "record" is stored. Courts all have their own systems for case management, and some counties make it easier than others to search for convictions.
Luckily, the state of Idaho (by order of the Idaho Supreme Court) several years ago standardized our statewide court computer systems. Now, all cases in all counties are tracked the exact same way, and when court clerks make updates on what happened with a case in court that day it's updated in real time. So, I just gotta put in the defendant's name and know his/her birthdate, and within a few minutes I can see if they've ever been convicted of anything anywhere in Idaho. I frequently find defendants with terrible records in another county who just recently moved here, and thanks to our central repository I know about it and know to jack up my sentencing rec.
Try that in California. I've called every damn county DA in the entire state at one point or another trying to see what people have been convicted of. While I can look in the Idaho repository and see "Grand Theft - Convicted 11/2/2005. Sentence: 8 years, 2 determinate, 6 indeterminate" and know immediately what's going on, the California system is so screwed up that the people who work in it can't even figure out what it means. Plus, the county systems aren't linked, so if I find out the guy's been arrested in 12 different counties I have to talk to 6 different people in each of the 12 counties before I can even get a partial answer of what his priors are. It's fucking maddening.
The gun registry works the same way for us. If a gun is registered, I know who owns it and I know if it's stolen. If there's no registry, then that fucko with the stolen gun is going to walk.
I'm not getting into a second amendment debate with you because this doesn't have shit to do with the second amendment. I know you don't want to hear this, but NOBODY HAS EVEN SUGGESTED TAKING AWAY YOUR GUNS. "Taking away your guns" is a strawman argument because it's easy to knock down. Of course people are against your guns being taken away, because it can't be legally done anyway. This registry bill doesn't even vaguely suggest doing anything of the sort, but because it includes the word "firearm" in it everyone has to flip out and assume (without bothering to actually read the bill) that its passage will instantly mandate that all criminals will get to have guns and law abiding citizens will be instantly stripped of them. 100% bullshit, and you'd know it if you bothered to read the bill.
Notacheater:
1. Yes, they won't find out if the arsenal isn't registered. I never said it would work 100% of the time.
2. Good luck convincing any state legislature in the country that CCW should be a felony. Never, ever, ever, ever going to happen.
3 & 4. Serial numbers are REALLY hard to remove. Even if it's been scratched off completely, there are still ways to make it readable. The manufacturing process stamps the serial numbers on the side of the gun, so that makes detectable changes in the metal of the gun. It's almost impossible to remove the serial number in a way that we can't still find it. Doing so might make our registry check take longer because we'll have to do more work to find the serial number, but it will still happen.
|
|
|
Post by Notanalt on Mar 5, 2009 14:53:15 GMT
Notacheater has reformed his ways and is living as a simple not-quite-yet powerplaying necro these days.
I actually think if this worked like it should in theory then the gun registry might not be a bad idea.
But since it fails (in Canada at least) to actually accomplish its goals and it costs gross amounts of money, I'd rather the money go to something else.
We just had a meeting last night in our city regarding the shutting down of schools because of funding cutbacks. If it comes down to a question between money to run a useless gun registry program or instead putting those billions of dollars towards education for children - well it's a no brainer.
|
|
|
Post by Pillar on Mar 5, 2009 16:27:20 GMT
for tehlung:
A Russian arrives in New York City as a new immigrant to
the United States . He stops the first person he sees walking
down the street and says, "Thank you Mr. American for letting
me into this country, giving me housing, food stamps, free
medical care, and a free education!"
The passerby says, "You are mistaken, I am a Mexican."
The man goes on and encounters another passerby. "Thank you
for having such a beautiful countryhere in America ."
The person says, "I not American, I Vietnamese."
The new arrival walks farther, and the next person he
sees he stops, shakes his hand, and says, "Thank you for
wonderful America !"
That person puts up his hand and says, "I am from
Middle East . I am not American."
He finally sees a nice lady and asks, "Are you an American?"
She says, "No, I am from Africa ."
Puzzled, he asks her, "Where are all the Americans?"
The African lady checks her watch and says, "Probably at work."
|
|
|
Post by tehlung on Mar 5, 2009 19:30:57 GMT
for tehlung: A Russian arrives in New York City as a new immigrant to the United States . He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says, "Thank you Mr. American for letting me into this country, giving me housing, food stamps, free medical care, and a free education!" The passerby says, "You are mistaken, I am a Mexican." The man goes on and encounters another passerby. "Thank you for having such a beautiful countryhere in America ." The person says, "I not American, I Vietnamese." The new arrival walks farther, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand, and says, "Thank you for wonderful America !" That person puts up his hand and says, "I am from Middle East . I am not American." He finally sees a nice lady and asks, "Are you an American?" She says, "No, I am from Africa ." Puzzled, he asks her, "Where are all the Americans?" The African lady checks her watch and says, "Probably at work." Aint that the truth
|
|
|
Post by tehlung on Mar 5, 2009 20:19:47 GMT
I love President Obama!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
He's the best president ever! Isn't he grand? He's so awesome at fixing all the problems over the last 200+ years caused by George Bush!!!!!!1 He gives great speeches! I hope he's president for life!
He and his followers stand for timeless American values like helping your lazy neighbor, apologizing for America, spending our kids' money, and encouraging discussion of his ideas exclusively.
|
|